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James Handy's girlfriend, Wendy Gledhill, reveals 'Jumanji' actor's final moments before fatal stabbing
Wendy Gledhill, girlfriend of the late James Handy and mother of his alleged killer, Michael Gledhill, opened up about the actor's final moments before his fatal stabbing.
Whoopi Goldberg reveals surprise 'View' reunion with Rosie O'Donnell
Whoopi Goldberg discussed her reunion with former 'The View' cohost Rosie O'Donnell as the pair ran into each other backstage at 'The Jellicle Ball' on Broadway: 'I thought she was in Ireland?' Sunny Hostin asked.
Why 'Heated Rivalry' season 2 hopeful Jack Innanen couldn't make role work
Jack Innanen, a longtime 'Heated Rivalry' hopeful, was offered a season 2 role, but the 'Adults' and 'Big Mistakes' star couldn't accept due to production conflicts, EW can confirm.
Sydney Sweeney reacts to 'Euphoria' 'cast drama' rumors after final season
Sydney Sweeney responded to 'cast drama' rumors after 'Euphoria' ended with a heavily maligned final season, and spoke about 'clickbait' that's written about her.
Sydney Sweeney hopes her cut 'Euphoria' pole-dancing scene is released: 'I put a lot of hard work into that'
Sydney Sweeney, who played Cassie on 'Euphoria,' says there was a pole-dancing scene that was cut. Here's why she was disappointed.
Former Superman Dean Cain takes jab at Milly Alcock's Supergirl
Milly Alcock, star of the new movie 'Supergirl,' was the butt of a joke posted on social media by actor Dean Cain, who played a ʼ90s TV Superman.
Food allergy group calls out Mindy Kaling's 'Not Suitable for Work' over 'dangerous' shellfish plotline
Mindy Kaling's comedy series 'Not Suitable for Work' included a 'dangerous' plotline involving shellfish, FARE, a food allergy awareness group, claims.
Andy Cohen reveals Jennifer Lawrence figured out how the 'Summer House' reunion leaked
After Bravo's three-part reunion for 'Summer House,' host Andy Cohen revealed the A-list actress who helped the network find the culprit of the viral leaked audio.
Horrifying 'America's Got Talent' act makes judges and audience look away: 'Have you ever watched a film called 'Misery'?'
This 'America's Got Talent' act horrified onlookers with their gruesome act. Even the judges couldn't stand to watch.
Steven Spielberg doesn't want to be the first human to meet aliens: 'I would not be the right person'
Steven Spielberg says that he doesn't want to be the first human to meet alien visitors: 'I would not be the right person.'
Former late-night host isn't sure he could have navigated Trump's presidency
Former 'Late Late Show' host Craig Ferguson said he isn't sure how he would have handled Donald Trump's presidency: 'I'm glad I didn't have to, to be honest.'
James Van Der Beek's first wife says he gave blessing to her new marriage before his death
James Van Der Beek's first wife, Heather McComb, says the late 'Dawson's Creek' actor gave his blessing to her new marriage before his death: 'Something that I will always hold on my heart.'
Lesley Stahl says Paramount boss David Ellison promised editorial independence for '60 Minutes'
Veteran journalist Lesley Stahl says Paramount boss David Ellison promised editorial independence for '60 Minutes' during a phone call following Scott Pelley's firing.
'The Pitt' star reveals another character is leaving the ER ahead of season 3: 'I'm scared and nervous'
'The Pitt' star Shabana Azeez reveals why her character won't be working in the ER in season 3.
Is Donald Trump going to Game 4 of the NBA Finals?
After getting booed at Madison Square Garden and overseeing the end of the New York Knicks' historic winning-streak, Donald Trump has revealed whether he plans to attend Games 4 and 5 of the NBA Finals.
Steven Spielberg exposes the truth about his latest extra-terrestrial thriller 'Disclosure Day'
Steven Spielberg is still looking to the stars. The 'E.T.' filmmaker and actors Emily Blunt, Josh O'Connor, Colman Domingo, and Colin Firth declassify their mysterious thriller 'Disclosure Day.'
NBA legend Charles Barkley makes wild Cardi B joke during Spurs-Knicks playoffs game
NBA legend Charles Barkley made a wild joke about Cardi B at the San Antonio Spurs-New York Knicks playoffs game as the rapper performed at halftime.
Emmy Rossum and Liz Meriwether unpack their 'twisty' crime thriller 'Furious' in exclusive first look
'Entertainment Weekly' has your exclusive first look at Emmy Rossum and Liz Meriwether's 'twisty' new crime thriller, 'Furious': 'I want people to be on the edge of their seat.'
Donald Trump reacts to being booed in the room at NBA Finals game
Donald Trump responded after New York Knicks fans booed him at the NBA Finals game inside Madison Square Garden.
Jack Schlossberg responds to Madonna saying his uncle, JFK Jr., was 'best f---' of her life
John F. Kennedy Jr.'s nephew, Jack Schlossberg, has reacted to Madonna saying his uncle was the best sex of her life.
Donald Trump appeared to fall asleep at NBA Finals game — and Jimmy Kimmel anticipated it
President Trump was in the building for the Knicks-Spurs game on Monday night, but he appeared to doze off during, which Jimmy Kimmel saw coming.
Ottawa Center for the Arts repurposes churches for entertainment and culture
Ottawa Center for the Arts uses repurposed churches, each rich in history, that are now invigorated with activity.
J.Lo explains why she dropped out of Madonna, Britney Spears' VMAs performance
Jennifer Lopez confirmed she was asked to join Madonna and Britney Spears for 2003 MTV VMAs performance and revealed why she didn't end up doing it: 'We rehearsed and everything,' J.Lo recalled.
Donald Trump greeted with boos at Madison Square Garden during NBA Finals game
Donald Trump was greeted with boos at Game 3 of the NBA Finals, which saw the San Antonio Spurs face off against the New York Knicks at Madison Square Garden. The Spurs won 115-111.
Jason Momoa drops out of Justin Lin's 'Helldivers' movie
'Aquaman' star Jason Momoa will no longer appear in director Justin Lin's movie adaptation of the 'Helldivers' video game.
Madonna's 'Confessions II' film is her boldest (and best) work in years
Madonna's 'Confessions II' breaks down the icon's legacy and previews her new album. EW reviews the short film's significance in her canon and why it's her best work in years.
'SNL' icon Jim Downey recalls O.J. Simpson calling every Sunday to complain about 'Weekend Update' jokes at his expense
Before Jim Downey and Norm Macdonald were fired from 'SNL,' O.J. Simpson would call the head of NBC to complain about the duo's 'Weekend Updates' jokes about him.
Kurt Russell recalls ‘difficulties’ between Michelle Pfeiffer and 'Tequila Sunrise' director
Kurt Russell says there were 'difficulties' between Michelle Pfeiffer and director Robert Towne on the set of the 1988 crime thriller 'Tequila Sunrise.'
'The View' cohost grills Laverne Cox on dating pro-Trump policeman: 'Didn't plan to fall in love'
Laverne Cox responded to 'The View' cohost and former Donald Trump staffer Alyssa Farah Griffin grilling her on dating a pro-Trump police officer: 'People show you who they are eventually,' Cox said.
'Scooby-Doo: Origins' reveals what mystery-solving pup looks like in Netflix prequel, marking a first for the franchise
'Scbooy-Doo: Origins' revealed what the Great Dane pup in the upcoming Netflix prequel looks like.
Colman Domingo stars in trailer for movie shot in 'every available' format — including new IMAX lens (exclusive)
Take an exclusive look at Colman Domingo and Abigail Breslin in the trailer for 'Chapter 51,' the upcoming movie that utilizes 'every available film format' — including one never used before.
FCC chair calls Scott Pelley ‘out of touch’ for claiming '60 Minutes' firing was unexpected
FCC chair Brendan Carr called Scott Pelley 'completely out of touch' after the veteran journalist claimed he wasn't expecting to be fired from '60 Minutes' for criticizing new CBS News leadership.
Savannah Guthrie posts emotional message as search for mom Nancy continues
Savannah Guthrie has shared a poignant note as the search for her missing mother Nancy Guthrie continues, four months after she disappeared.
Idris Elba never thought a Black actor being cast as James Bond was 'realistic': 'Let's not try and make it woke'
Despite over a decade of rumors that he should be the next James Bond, Idris Elba believes that it was 'never legit' and that many would never accept a Black man in the role.
Rosie O'Donnell slams Donald Trump as 'a--hole' and 'psychopath' upon return from Ireland
Rosie O'Donnell returned from Ireland and slammed Donald Trump's 'horrific' political landscape and called him out for farting: 'He is a conman, he is a narcissist, and he is a psychopath.'
Hugh Laurie slams writer for criticizing 'House' 14 years after its finale: 'Wasn't meant for you'
Hugh Laurie channeled Dr. Gregory House himself when responding to criticism of the medical drama on which he starred for eight years: 'It wasn't meant for you.'
'Schmigadoon!' producer credits Apple TV cancellation for show's Best Musical win at the 2026 Tonys
'Schmigadoon!' took home the Tony award for Best Musical, with producers Lorne Michaels and Christine Schwarzman accepting the trophy for the cast and crew. Schwartzman thanked Apple TV 'for canceling the third season of 'Schmigadoon!,' the TV show.'
Rosie O'Donnell opens up about decision to go public with facelift: 'Authenticity is the goal'
Rosie O'Donnell explained the motivation behind her openness about getting a facelift, vowing to continue being honest about the 'complicated emotions' that surround the procedure.
Pink wows the crowd at the 2026 Tony Awards with a 'Lady Marmalade'-themed opener
Pink hosted the 79th annual Tony Awards and stunned in a fun-filled opening number that featured stunts, celebrities, and her incredible vocal range.
Aubrey Plaza cradles her pregnant belly alongside Christopher Abbott at 2026 Tony Awards
Aubrey Plaza, who's expecting her first baby, walked the red carpet at the 79th annual Tony Awards alongside her partner Christopher Abbott.
Jon Cryer thought Andrew McCarthy was a 'dick' amid 'all kinds of issues' filming 'Pretty in Pink'
Jon Cryer initially thought his 'Pretty in Pink' costar Andrew McCarthy was a 'dick' amid 'all kinds of issues' on the 1986 film set, before learning that McCarthy was 'battling his own demons.'
Tony Awards 2026 winners revealed: See the full list
Check out who took home top honors at the 2026 Tony Awards, hosted by Pink.
'Scary Movie' bests 'Backrooms' and 'Masters of the Universe' in weekend box office brawl
The side-splitting return of 'Scary Movie' didn't just best 'Backrooms' and 'Masters of the Universe' at the weekend box office; it opened higher than any previous entry in the parody franchise.
'Rivals' shocks viewers by killing off major character in surprise book change
'Rivals' just deviated from Jilly Cooper's 'Rutshire Chronicles' by killing off a major character in a surprise change from the books. Why? Because it was time for Tony to "pay some penance for what he has done."
Trump walks out on 'Meet the Press' interview after clash with NBC journalist: 'I've had enough'
President Donald Trump did not take kindly to NBC's Kristen Welker bringing up the results of the 2020 election and walked out, ending the interview early.
Olympian Simone Biles is recovering from serious health scare after 'almost dying'
Olympian Simone Biles reveals she has spent the week recovering in bed after suffering a frightening health scare: 'Almost dying wasn't on my bingo card.'
That's amore! Dua Lipa and Callum Turner host second wedding ceremony at luxurious Italian villa
Dua Lipa and Callum Turner have tied the knot — again. The musician and actor are celebrating their marriage with a second ceremony after making things official in London on May 31.
What those 'Masters of the Universe' end-credits scenes mean for a potential sequel— and why one almost didn't happen
'Masters of the Universe' director Travis Knight and star Nicholas Galitzine break down those two end-credits scenes — one of which almost didn't get to be in the movie — and what they reveal about a potential second He-Man film.
'Scandal' stars Kerry Washington and Tony Goldwyn think Olivia and Fitz are still together
'Scandal' on-screen couple Kerry Washington and Tony Goldwyn reunited for Variety's Actors on Actors series.
It Safe To Eat Green Bananas? Here's What the Science Says
Are green bananas safe to eat? We did the research to find out. Here’s how their flavor, texture, and nutrition change as they ripen.
High School Science Teacher Dies Suddenly from Aggressive Form of Leukemia: ‘Her Illness Came Without Warning’
Ohio science teacher Michelle Eynon is being remembered after her sudden death from acute leukemia at the age of 48. She is survived by her husband and two children.
James Handy's final film scrapped after late actor's murder, producer says
A producer of James Handy's final movie project shares that the comedy film has officially been axed after the late actor's killing on June 3.
'Buffy' star Alyson Hannigan mourns the death of Anthony Head: 'This cut is so deep I fear it can never heal'
'Buffy' star Alyson Hannigan mourned the death of her costar Anthony Head, who played Rupert Giles on the supernatural series.
Jimmy Fallon suddenly drops out of Madonna premiere interview for 'Confessions II'
Jimmy Fallon dropped out of a Madonna interview at the last minute, with Anderson Cooper filling in at the 'Confessions II' short film premiere in New York City.
Jimmy Kimmel says Trump should be rooting for the Spurs in 2026 NBA Finals: 'It's what got him out of Vietnam'
Jimmy Kimmel shared his two cents on why Donald Trump should be rooting for the San Antonio Spurs over his hometown team, the New York Knicks, when he attends game three of the NBA finals.
Colman Domingo to be guest on first-ever live Awardist podcast recording at Tribeca Film Festival
From 'The Four Seasons' and 'Euphoria,' to 'Disclosure Day' and 'Michael,' Colman Domingo will chat about his incredible career as the guest for EW's first-ever live recording of 'The Awardist' podcast at Tribeca.
The Kennedys and British royal family were once romantically linked, new book reveals exactly how
A member from each of the Kennedys and the royal family were once romantically linked, Caroline Hallemann's new book reveals. The two dynasties have been connected for decades, dating back to the 1930s.
‘Regular Communication Has Helped’ Tiger Woods and Vanessa Trump ‘Cope’ amid Their Health Struggles (Exclusive Source)
Tiger Woods, 50, and Vanessa Trump, 48, are leaning on each other for support as they overcome their own health challenges together, PEOPLE has exclusively learned.
Everything you need to know about that big 'Masters of the Universe' cameo
'Masters of the Universe' star Nicholas Galitzine and director Travis Knight detail how they landed a certain member of He-Man royalty for a cameo in the new sci-fi/fantasy movie.
'Among Us' TV show surprise premieres 2 years after wrapping production
'Among Us' TV show surprise premieres all 10 episodes on Paramount+, 2 years after series creator Owen Dennis wrapped production.
Soccer star Ashlyn Harris talks 'co-parenting' with ex Ali Krieger: 'I respect her as a mom'
Soccer star Ashlyn Harris says she respects her former partner, Ali Krieger, as a mom to their two young kids.
Paul McCartney says feud with John Lennon before the Beatles broke up felt 'like sticking little daggers in me'
Former Beatle Paul McCartney looks back on feud with bandmate John Lennon over management disputes before the band broke up.
'Lioness' season 3 first look: Zoe Saldaña teases Joe's 'demanding' new mission (exclusive)
In the exclusive first look at the highly anticipated return of 'Lioness,' Zoe Saldaña previews the 'demanding' new season: 'I didn't even know if I was gonna be able to pull it off.'
'Every Year After' showrunner has a 5-season plan for the series
'Every Year After' showrunner Amy B. Harris has big plans for Barry's Bay, including a season 2 that will adapt Carley Fortune's 'One Golden Summer.'
Alexa Demie reveals how she felt about Barbie Ferreira leaving 'Euphoria' after season 2
'Euphoria' star Alexa Demie has revealed how she really felt about Barbie Ferreira's shocking exit after season 2, ahead of the heavily criticized final season of the Zendaya-starring show.
James Handy, 'Jumanji' and 'Top Gun: Maverick' actor, fatally stabbed at 81
Los Angeles police say that actor James Handy, known for his work in films like 'Top Gun: Maverick' and 'Jumanji,' has been fatally stabbed at 81. A suspect is in custody.
Soccer star Ashlyn Harris opens up about divorce from former teammate Ali Krieger
World Cup champion Ashlyn Harris explains that her life with Krieger 'just wasn't for me.'
'Grey's Anatomy' star talks future amid cast exits: Every show 'gets canceled someday'
'Grey's Anatomy' actor Jason George has revealed he's returning to the show after the cast exit saw Kim Raver and Kevin McKidd leave the series: Every show 'gets canceled someday,' George said.
Madonna Turns Times Square into Night Club, Previews New Album to Kick Off Pride Month at Surprise Concert: 'C'mon, Gays!'
Madonna turned New York City's Times Square into a vibrant dance floor to preview 'Confessions II' to kick off Pride Month in partnership with Grindr. She took the stage in a glamorous pink corset paired with coordinating stockings and silver lace-up boots to perform songs from the new album.
Quentin Tarantino rips modern movies from Hollywood's 'flavorless sausage factory,' would 'rather read a book'
Quentin Tarantino slammed contemporary movies, as he called Hollywood a 'flavorless sausage factory' — but named a few recent films he actually liked.
Danielle Fishel and Will Friedle open up about 'sad' rift with 'Boy Meets World' costar Ben Savage
Danielle Fishel and Will Friedle are opening up about their falling out with 'Boy Meets World' costar Ben Savage, whom they say declined to cohost their rewatch podcast in 2022, and has since gone silent.
Sharon Stone knew her marriage was 'over' when husband questioned her getting mastectomy despite massive tumor
Actress Sharon Stone said she knew her marriage was finished when her then-husband was 'furious' with her decision to get a double mastectomy after doctors found tumors in her breasts: 'He was done with me then.'
Jennifer Garner reveals how 'upheaval' from Ben Affleck divorce impacted her career
Jennifer Garner says the end of her marriage to Ben Affleck led to such an 'upheaval' in her family life that she 'hardly worked' for years.
Martin Bashir recalls being 'gobsmacked' by Michael Jackson telling him he slept in the same bed as children
Journalist Martin Bashir appears in the new Netflix documentary 'Michael Jackson: The Verdict,' in which he details filming the controversial 2003 special 'Living With Michael Jackson.'
How 'Avatar: The Last Airbender' season 2 delivers Toph and 'Fire Nation succession' (exclusive)
On set for 'Avatar: The Last Airbender' season 2 as the cast and crew preview what's to come (and look ahead to season 3).
'Survivor 50' players name the best moment of the season
'Survivor 50' players name the best moment of the season, and while one clear winning answer emerges, get ready for a few twists in the replies.
Ted Danson will 'apologize for the rest of my life' for infamous blackface performance at Whoopi Goldberg roast
Ted Danson recalls preparing for the infamous roast of Whoopi Goldberg in 1993. He knew immediately that it hadn't gone well.
Why Anna Faris thought she'd never do another 'Scary Movie': 'A concession of my soul'
Anna Faris never thought she'd return to the 'Scary Movie' franchise, fearing 'a concession of my soul.' Now, she tells EW that coming back as Cindy Campbell after 20 years has been a 'huge gift.'
Jason Sudeikis calls dating 'daunting' following Olivia Wilde split in rare comment about personal life
Jason Sudeikis finds dating 'daunting,' he says, six years after he and Olivia Wilde ended their engagement.
The cult of objectivity has broken consciousness science
With 22 competing theories and no consensus in sight, the science of consciousness is lost. In this exclusive IAI interview, Berkeley psychedelics researcher and bestselling author of a new book on consciousness Michael Pollan insists that even though consciousness lies beyond traditional forms of scientific investigation, we should resist becoming dualists who see it as something radically different from ordinary stuff in the world. Instead, he makes the case for reimagining science itself: it must stop reaching for objective descriptions of physical reality, and instead embrace subjectivity as the indispensable core of all inquiry. Alasdair Craig: How did your experiences with psychedelics get you interested in consciousness?Michael Pollan: One of the things that happens on psychedelics is that they foreground consciousness. What formerly seemed perfectly transparent and ever present—and yet, non-existent, as water is to fish—suddenly you see it. The metaphor I use in the book is that psychedelics sponge the windscreen. Suddenly you realize: wow, there’s a windscreen, there is this phenomenon that’s mediating my relationship to reality. This is not an unusual realization on psychedelics. I think a lot of people are called to think about consciousness after psychedelic experiences. So that was the proximate inspiration for A World Appears: A Journey Into Consciousness (2026).And then there was a more specific way in which psychedelics influence the book. That was a particular experience I had on psilocybin. I had the sensation that the plants in my garden were conscious and returning my gaze, with their own point of view and agency, and I got curious as to how to evaluate an insight like that. I mean, what’s the truth quotient of insights you have on psychedelics? And I was reading William James—who, of course, wrote beautifully about mystical experience—and he said, we can’t judge the metaphysics here, but we should pay attention to two criteria: (1) How useful is it to think this is true? He was a pragmatist, of course. And (2) can we subject it to other ways of knowing to validate it? Because maybe we should treat these insights as hypotheses. And that’s kind of how I approach psychedelics, as a great generator of hypotheses, but they need to be tested against other ways of knowing. And so that led me down this long path exploring the science of plant intelligence and plant sentience.AC: I love your phrase, “smudging the windowpane of conscious experience.” So do you now start to think, actually, even when I’m not on psychedelics, I’m just seeing a screen all the time, which is not reality, but rather is my conscious experience, behind which reality is hidden?MP: Well, you know, not when I’m brushing my teeth and making breakfast! But yes, in meditation, certainly. I mean, one of the things you realize is that my experience happens to be this way now, but it could be another way. And many things can affect it. My morning coffee changes the screen in various ways, sharpens certain things.___The only tool we have to understand consciousness is consciousness.___There’s this wonderful metaphor in Aldous Huxley’s book, The Doors of Perception, where he thinks we channel consciousness, and that what the brain does is edit it, and there’s a reducing valve. And psychedelics open the reducing valve wider. I don’t know that I’m ready to buy into the idea that consciousness exists outside brains, but I do love that metaphor because there are times when you are more conscious than others. I know I’ve switched from window pane to valve, but you know, a camera aperture can open wider or narrower. And I do have a sense of that. I have a sense of when I’m being less conscious, and when I’m being more conscious, by which I mean, you know, more present, taking in more sensory information. So when you start thinking about consciousness as a matter of degree, that changes things also.I think when we scroll on social media, obviously, we’re conscious. But minimally so, because we don’t have to generate our own thoughts. We’re basically taking these little hits from other people and thinking their thoughts.The process of writing this book made me kind of relativize everyday consciousness as just one type, which is exactly what William James said. Normal consciousness is one type, separated by the flimsiest of screens from the other types.AC: If we stick with the metaphor of the smudge on the window that you get when you take psychedelics, it seems like we’re saying that consciousness has become like an object that you’re looking at, right? You’re looking at the smudge and that just is consciousness. But sometimes we’ll talk about consciousness as a state that you’re in, rather than an object you can perceive. You’re either conscious or you’re not conscious. So it’s difficult to really know what sort of thing we’re talking about when we talk about consciousness, right?MP: Yeah. When you say that consciousness is an object, what’s the subject? Consciousness also? The only tool we have to understand consciousness is consciousness. So we’re in a closed loop and when we get a perspective on consciousness, we’re not achieving any distance from it. That’s one of the problems with studying consciousness. Science is predicated on an objective, God’s eye view of things, and you never get that. There’s no such thing. SUGGESTED VIEWING The brain filters consciousness With Àlex Gómez-Marín But, yeah, there is this sense, I think, that consciousness is something you can approach. Certainly, when you’re writing and trying to recreate a conscious experience, it’s a fiction, but you’re standing back from it, and looking at it. But there’s no real subject-object distinction.AC: That’s so interesting, because when philosophers start talking about consciousness, they often talk about what they call “qualia”, which is their word for the felt experience of, say, the color red. And I think that way of speaking often makes us think of the qualia as an object, which you can see out there: the redness of red. But, as you say, we also want to collapse the subject-object distinction when we talk about consciousness. So there’s something strange going on here…MP: Oh, yeah, there are many strange things going on! *AC: Let’s talk about the varieties of consciousness. Apart from perceptions, there are, pains, emotions, thoughts, and so on. What is it that holds all this diversity together so that they all count as instances of consciousness? What is it that they all have in common?MP: Yeah, that’s a really good question. I mean, there is sensory information, right? Which we perceive coming from the world outside ourselves. And then there’s internal information, which is what’s called interoception. And this is very important too. This is where feelings come from—what are sometimes called homeostatic feelings—that are intended to get the brain to keep us in these narrow ranges of temperature and glucose and so on. That’s a very important part of consciousness. And according to some researchers, who I think are probably right, this is where consciousness begins, with these very primal feelings, like hunger and thirst and warmth and itch, and things like that. And then there’s this third thing, which is our thinking about thinking.And what holds all this together is, I think, the sense of self. Consciousness generates a self: it is probably an organizing principle. All this stuff is happening to the self. It’s a construct, I think, but it is very useful. It can connect all these different streams of consciousness to a single being or a place, metaphorically speaking.* AC: The first half of your book is about the science of consciousness. Is consciousness just another thing, like black holes or the origin of life, which we don’t yet understand, but which we should have every hope that science will one day get to the bottom of, or is there something special about consciousness that makes this unlikely?MP: It depends how you define science. As we define science now, it’s going be very difficult. Science since Galileo has had a set of rules or assumptions, which is that the proper remit of science is to deal with the objective, quantifiable, third-person world. And the physical sciences have done amazing work under that set of limitations. Galileo—for tactical reasons, not for philosophical reasons—said science should not deal with the soul, which at the time was what consciousness was considered to be. So what is subjective, what is qualitative, what is first person, we’re going to leave to the church, he said. And this was a good agreement, and it probably kept many scientists from getting burned at the stake. But it leaves science in an awkward spot, now that it wants to venture into that territory of qualities, of first-person experience. And I don’t think it has the proper tools. I think it will have to add to its toolkit in some way, and find a way to bring in phenomenology, or lived experience and introspection, which science is usually dismissive of.The challenge—we alluded to it earlier—is that the only tool you have to study consciousness with is consciousness. And what I mean by that is, the whole scientific enterprise is a manifestation of consciousness. As much as scientists like to flatter themselves with this idea that they attain a godlike perspective on what they study, when it comes to consciousness, there’s no such thing. And it’s fine for all the things you can step outside of and study from that perspective. But two areas it won’t work are consciousness and cosmology.___It could be that we live in this anomaly of not believing nature is conscious. And maybe psychedelics are teaching us something we’ve forgotten.___With cosmology, too, you have to study the universe from inside the universe. It’s not that cosmologists haven’t made progress. We know a lot about the age of the universe and expansion and things like that. But we can’t penetrate what happened before the Big Bang. We just don’t have the tools because we can’t stand outside.The fact that there are 22 full-scale theories of consciousness tells you all you need to know: we’re kind of lost. And I was surprised to find that we are more lost than I thought we were when I started this. I thought that there’d be leading theories, or that we had experiments that we could conduct that would nail some of this down. And the fact is, we don’t.So, I don’t know if science can solve it. But, of course, we can change the rules of science. A really influential book for me was a book called The Blind Spot, by two physicists, Marcello Gleiser and Adam Frank, and a philosopher, Evan Thompson. It’s a reminder that science is a social practice. It’s organized in a certain way and it can be organized in a different way. But it has this huge blind spot at the center of it, which is its failure to recognize that it is a form of consciousness itself, and it doesn’t have a good way of taking account of lived experience.AC: On the one hand, I think you want to resist traditional dualism, which would say that consciousness is something magical, something supernatural, right? But on the other hand, you’re accepting that there is this division in reality between the stuff that you can investigate objectively and measure, and so on—the stuff that science has been good at finding out about—and consciousness, which, for some reason, you can’t objectively measure. Some would take this to suggest that the dualism is actually right. Is there a way of reconciling these two strands of your thinking?MP: To call it magical is full of value judgement. I mean, you could just say immaterial. The interesting thing is, I think, that intuitively we’re all dualists. And I don’t know whether that’s because we’re children of Descartes and other cultures are less dualist than we are. Or it may be because that’s how consciousness feels. It feels different than the body. It feels separate from the body. But I don’t think we should trust that intuition.AC: So let’s think about ways that science might be changed to get at consciousness. I suppose the starting point would be the way that you begin the second half of your book. You have this nice line from William James, where he says, “We now begin our study of the mind from within.” Could you give us some sense of the ways of studying the mind from within? What does this involve?MP: I don’t know what that science looks like. But one of the points I’m making is that it depends on the humanities. I found that I learned as much, if not more, about consciousness, from reading novels and poetry. There is a sense of the fullness and complexity of consciousness that you don’t get in any scientific account. I interviewed this stream-of-consciousness writer and I approached her as an expert on consciousness, and she is. So I think that dialogue is really important.I’m reading Ben Lerner’s new novel, Transcription. Just read the first page of this novel: it’s a man falling asleep on a train, going to conduct an interview, and there is the experience of being in the train, facing backwards, there’s the view outside, but there’s a reflection of himself through which he’s seeing outside. There’s the memory of dropping his kids off at school. All this is going on in one moment of consciousness. Scientists aren’t going anywhere near that. But I think it’s useful for them to think about. That’s where we’re trying to go: like, how does such a layered experience happen? You know, it also makes you wonder, could a computer ever do this? And it gives you some doubt.*AC: Before we get to computers, perhaps we could talk briefly about plants. How did you come to feel that they are sentient?MP: Well, it was a psychedelic experience, and it’s not unusual on psychedelics. In fact, there’ve been studies about how people become animists during psychedelic experience. Their belief in animism arises after a single psychedelic experience.You know, most scientists would say this is all a myth. But we have only 400 years of the age of enlightenment and science. Before that, we were animists, and if you go around the world, most indigenous cultures are still animists, and children are animists, by and large, until they go to school. So it could be that we live in this anomaly of not believing nature is conscious. And maybe psychedelics are teaching us something we’ve forgotten.As I said, I wanted to test this idea, and see whether there was conventional scientific evidence for it. And there’s fascinating work going on in a field that calls itself—in a rather cheeky way—plant neurobiology. These are people who fully realize there are no neurons in plants, but they’re trolling conventional botanists! And they’re doing experiments that are demonstrating that plants can learn and remember, which is kind of amazing: how do you store a memory without neurons? They’re finding plants that can solve problems, that can hear and see. In fact, they have 20 senses to our five or six. For example, a bean plant looking for something to twine, and given a pole within eight inches or so of it, knows where that pole is and will aim its spiraling reach at that pole. What is that about? Is it bouncing signals off of it?One of the spookiest things is the fact that the same anesthetics that put us out put plants out. You might think that plants are already out, but they’re not. They’re just slow. If you take a plant with a fast behavior, like a Venus flytrap, and give it an anesthetic, it will stop reacting. So you have to ask yourself, what is lost when the plant is anaesthetized? Some state of alertness, of awareness, of its environment, of reactivity. I’m not prepared to call that consciousness, but maybe it’s sentience—which is a simpler form of consciousness, and involves the ability to sense what’s going on in your environment and assess what’s good and bad for you and act appropriately. That may be a universal quality of life.AC: Let’s turn from plants to AI. You point out that LLMs are trained on the internet rather than direct interactions with reality. You put this really nicely when you say the internet is not the world so much as a shadow cast by the world. So LLMs are living in this kind of shadow world, or in Plato’s cave, as you put it. What’s the significance of this for AI consciousness and moral consideration? And, to recall the beginning of our conversation, if we’re stuck behind a veil or screen of consciousness, are we also stuck in a kind of shadow world?MP: I don’t think they’re the same shadow worlds because our world includes nature and other people. And even if it’s mediated in some ways... There is a reality out there, and we are in relation to it, through consciousness. There’s friction with it. What’s missing from the LLMs is that friction with the real world. There’s more to the world than human representation, which is what they’re dealing with. And that means that so far, AI is a cultural technology for combining thoughts we’ve already had. SUGGESTED VIEWING Cracking the code for thought With Roger Penrose, Sabrina Gonzalez Pasterski, Max Tegmark, Güneş Taylor Genuine creativity is more than collage. A lot of what AI does now is tantamount to collage, putting this with that and you know, that’s part of art, certainly. But there are also genuinely new ideas that come into the world that don’t come in through manipulating the representations we already have. So it remains to be seen whether AIs can be truly creative in that more radical sense.But my arguments against AI becoming conscious have to do with the fact that the idea of AI consciousness is based on this faulty metaphor that the brain is a computer. There are dimensions in which the brain is like a computer—it certainly does its share of computation. But computers have this sharp distinction between hardware and software, and brains don’t. In a brain, hardware and software are identical. Every memory is a physical change to the brain. Brains are not interchangeable in the way computers are. So this idea that you could take the consciousness out and somehow run it on another substrate, a silicon substrate, seems foolhardy.Anyway, it’s a more extended argument, and I may be wrong. And when we move to computers that aren’t based on silicon—neuromorphic computers and things like that—all bets may be off.AC: Regarding your point about LLMs being stuck in the world of our representations—the internet or whatever—and not being able to interact with reality, are these representations, the world of the internet, themselves part of reality? We’ve created the internet, but it’s still a real thing that exists. And so while the LLMs may be trapped within that part of reality, they’re nevertheless within reality and interacting with it and so on. So it’s not obvious that there’s a barrier there to them becoming conscious and being creative.MP: Yeah, I mean, if our consciousness is built out of human culture, which is what we’re talking about with all those representations. But I tend to think consciousness comes a bit more out of nature and friction with the natural world, but...AC: So there’s a fundamental divide between the natural world and human artefacts?MP: And we lose track of that, and especially people in this computer world. You know, the people who are creating these AI systems, my guess is they’ve been into video games since the age of three, and they didn’t go outside a lot. And their own contact with nature is somewhat limited. I could be wrong, it’d be a very interesting thing to ask, all the wizards of AI, whether they like to go fishing and hiking and do things like that. Or were they on computers from a very early age? I interviewed Blake Lemoine, the Google engineer who came to believe that LaMDA, the Google LLM out at the time, was conscious and deserved personhood. It was very clear that he didn’t see a distinction between this bubble in which he lived and the real world. And I think we’ve all been distanced from the natural world, and this is taking us even further away. But it’s still there, you know, and we still have bodies, and we’re still mortal, and we don’t live in a simulation.AC: I think that’s a great place to finish. Michael Pollan, thank you very much!
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